I'd like to start a discussion on the prison system versus the public school system.
In response to the recent announcements regarding our state budget, I would like to know why our children should be the ones to suffer while NYS prisoners are living the "high-life" behind bars.
While our children may be facing no sports, no music, no drama club, or after-school programs, the Empire State's prisoners enjoy free room and board, state of the art fitness centers with no membership fee, free cable, free therapist sessions, and free health care and dental services.
Why should our children be the ones to suffer? Or us, if we want their services to continue, we must pay even higher taxes. Where do we draw the line?
The proposed New York State budget for corrections for 2008-2009 is $3 billion.
The proposed New York State budget for education for 2008-2009 is $31.5 billion.
One quick look at those figures and you might say, "Its a no-brainer--trim the education budget!" Take a closer look, though.
In 2006-2007, NY's per pupil spending of $15,263 was the second highest in the nation.
In contrast, NY's per inmate spending in 2001 was $36,835 (fifth highest in the nation)--adjusted for inflation, today that is $45,505.
$15,236 per student versus $45,505 per inmate.
What am I missing here?
In response to the recent announcements regarding our state budget, I would like to know why our children should be the ones to suffer while NYS prisoners are living the "high-life" behind bars.
While our children may be facing no sports, no music, no drama club, or after-school programs, the Empire State's prisoners enjoy free room and board, state of the art fitness centers with no membership fee, free cable, free therapist sessions, and free health care and dental services.
Why should our children be the ones to suffer? Or us, if we want their services to continue, we must pay even higher taxes. Where do we draw the line?
The proposed New York State budget for corrections for 2008-2009 is $3 billion.
The proposed New York State budget for education for 2008-2009 is $31.5 billion.
One quick look at those figures and you might say, "Its a no-brainer--trim the education budget!" Take a closer look, though.
In 2006-2007, NY's per pupil spending of $15,263 was the second highest in the nation.
In contrast, NY's per inmate spending in 2001 was $36,835 (fifth highest in the nation)--adjusted for inflation, today that is $45,505.
$15,236 per student versus $45,505 per inmate.
What am I missing here?
Before we figure out the re-budgeting, I think we need a paradigm shift, concerning both the prison and the school system.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, NY prisons are bursting at the seams, and they're looking for more places to put up prisons. I'm not saying prison terms should be reduced across the board, but I think the Rockefeller drug laws need to be revisited. And you're right about the living conditions of prisoners, I don't think it's cruel or unusual to take away their cable TV. I say give them PBS or nothing.
As for education, there too a paradigm shift needs to happen. It seems the teacher's union and Board of Regents have become calcified, and any push for innovative curricula is discouraged. Since Oct 4th, 1957, we've been teaching "space race" curricula with excessive focus on math and science -- we should stay competitive with other countries in math and science, yet let's equip out students with critical thinking skills that will bring their consumer and political decisions into a more global context.
And if we can't do that, let's populate rural NNY with charter schools.
Stump Speech
Perhaps our wonderful friends at the ACLU could fight for our students and the education system.
ReplyDeleteYou can be confident that they'd rush in if we were to take away cable TV in the prisons. Common sense is not common and horse sense seems to only work for horses.
Please keep fighting.
Hey Stump, what happened on Oct 4th, 1957?
ReplyDeleteThe launch of Sputnik I.
ReplyDeleteI can not speak for all the prisons in NYS. But the one I have worked at for 20 years....the inmates pay the cable bill. The money is raised through "in prison fund raisers" from inmate organizations. As far as the medical and dental treatment offered to inmates....STA I hope your not saying that these "felonious" humans do not deserve basic care? Programs in education, and vocation came about directly from the Attica Riots. Google the riots! With the increase of drug related crimes over the past few decades, fostering the need for alcohol and substance abuse programs. The name of the prison system in NYS is "Corrections" meaning to change the inmates behavior through programs
ReplyDeleteYes, Jim, I realize the system is called "corrections."
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings on this subject.
But, I had hoped you would know better than to ask me "STA I hope your not saying that these "felonious" humans do not deserve basic care?"
Another but: when we are spending more to incarcerate criminals--people who murder, maim, rape, steal...people who are incarcerated because they are a threat to society--when we are spending more to house and care for these individuals than we are spending to educate our children...well, I think there is something wrong with that.
I think, as a society, we need to step back and take a long hard look at ourselves.
I knew you really did not think that about basic care for inmates. Remember my motto....."to inform and annoy". Housing, feeding, and medical care are the biggies for expenses. The state is paying far more to house state ready inmates in county and city jails like Rikers island. There are thousands of inmates in those facilities at a cost to the state of about $200+ per day. BTW program services like education make up a very small part of the budget pie. One other thought....these inmates were once part of our education system. I could go on and on, but this is a discussion.........next thought?
ReplyDeleteI don't think the education system has anything to do with the prison population. The urge to do crime does not discriminate regardless of education. You have Harvard educated Ted Kaczynski and you have inner-city drop out gang members. Crime hits all corners of the social and economic spectrum.
ReplyDeleteThat said, let's get back to cable. One has to look at the big picture here. Whatever programs may be in place now, at some point there was a cost to implement said programs. So inmates pay for cable themselves. How much did the state have to invest of taxpayer monies to wire the prisons for cable in the first place?
The thing to look at, as in the housing market crisis, is what got us to this place we are now in? The economic cesspool we now find ourselves in did not happen this past September and October--it has been building for 10-15 years, or longer, depending on who you are talking to.
The responsible thing to do at this juncture is look at the big picture, swallow our pride, identify what we did wrong, and pledge not to do it again. For example: did we really need to invest MILLIONS of taxpayer money to wire the state's prisons for cable in the first place?
One of my favorite quotes is from George Santayana: Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
More to follow....
The cable is not the problem. You oppose the prison system. Shall we just warehouse the inmates, placing them in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day. There are 2500 employees working in the 5 prisons located in the NC. Would you get rid of half of those who are teachers counselors nurses and other support staff! What jobs would you replace these with? Walmart, Mickey D's? No more from me, you are not a "I am trying to see your point" type of person. Stick with your statistics and don't try and even see the hard work that we do with the inmates. An Extremely pissed off.....pg
ReplyDeleteSorry, I'm dating myself -- October 4th, 1957 was when Sputnik was launched. And the U.S. overhauled the country's education system so that the next generation would be technologically competitive in the space race.
ReplyDeleteEducation has changed very little since then, and I think weve lost some crucial critical thinking skills along the way, the kind of critical thinking that would make the population fully informed citizens of the nation and the world.
Stump Speech
Jim, Jim, Jim...settle down for crying outloud.
ReplyDeleteAs you stated in a previous comment, "but this is a discussion..." There is no need to be pissed off. I thought we were "discussing."
I can't understand how you can suggest that I am not "I am trying to see your point type of person," from my comment. I didn't get anywhere in your post that you were trying to see my point of view, but I didn't jump all down your throat about it.
I am not against the prison system. But as with most things, I think it needs some tweaking. I think the education system needs some major tweaking. I do not, however, think it should be at the expense of our children. I have worked in the public school system, and have first hand experience of things that can and should be either changed or eliminated altogether, because of lack of effectiveness or redundancy.
My point about the prison system was simply to point out that there are NON-NECESSITIES there that can be at least temporarily be put on hold if it would help the state cut back. My main issue is the first thing people look to when make cuts is education. I've conceded that there needs to be some trimming. But when it comes to prisoners having a weight room or my child being able to play soccer, I think the weight room should be the first thing to go.
(Sidebar: while I am certainly not an expert, I am not completely out of touch with the prison system--some of my closest friends are correction officers or counselors in Ogdensburg, and my brother used to teach carpentry at a prison near Rochester.)
BIG CHESHIRE CAT SMILE
ReplyDeleteNow that the ball is rolling on your topic......The cable wiring is in place, bought and paid for so to speak. Ripping it out at this point would be ridiculous. The weight rooms are free weights with a few old weight machines. I am sure the budget for replacement equipment will be drastically reduced. Cost cutting measures are being implemented as we speak. Our Commissioner is very proactive about cutting spending. Transportation of inmates has been reduced to all but one trip per week. An appreciation dinner for all the "Volunteers" is now being paid for by the inmates, not the taxpayers as it used to be. We have closed two housing units, which frees up man power, greatly reducing any overtime. The Commissioner will continue all of this and much more without any legislative intervention. Are other state agencies being this proactive.......nope! not yet! I hope for their sake they get on the band wagon.......Back to you STA
Well, duh, Jim. I never suggested ripping out the wires.
ReplyDeleteSee, now I'm glad I posted this--I'm getting a little action now. =)
The prison versus school topic is just one example of what's fair versus what's bullshit. While it may appear that way, I am not exclusively picking on the prison system. I have problems with LOTS of other things. But if I wanted to tackle everything at once, I would have a post the length of the Bible. As an active participant, you get to pick the next topic. K?
And if I'm not that well versed on it, I'll do my best to research it.
That said, here is my whole argument in a nutshell:
Why does it take a situation such as what we are in now to make us look back at all of the piss poor ridiculous choices that were made to get us here? Shouldn't we employ more thought and foresight in our decision making? Why does it always have to be about "what can this do for me today?" instead of how will this affect others in the future?
It seems to me--with the banking industry, the auto industry, the state of our state, the environment--that we are constantly trying to fix our mistakes. Mistakes that could have been prevented altogether if (1) someone had used more sound judgment, or (2) upon witnessing the idiocy develop, someone had said--no f-ing way are you going to do that. We, as citizens, can effectively blame ourselves for not paying more attention and not speaking up when we should have.
While our sheer numbers make it unlikely the US will ever be a true direct democracy, we can--and should--take more proactive steps toward being a participatory democracy--one where we play a more active role in decision making, and we are held just as accountable in our decisions as our representatives.
A couple differences between prison guards and teachers is that prison guards get paid more and they have guns.
ReplyDeleteThere are no armed posts inside the prison.
ReplyDeleteDepending on how long a C.O. or a teacher has been "in the system" determines whether a teacher may make more than a CO and vica versa.
in general, i'm pretty sure that COs have a higher starting salary than NYS teachers.
ReplyDeleteThis from NYDOCS, dated July 7, 2008:
ReplyDeleteThe starting annual salary for a trainee is $34,329. After completing the eight-week training program, each trainee receives a $200 lump sum payment. After six months, trainees’ salaries increase to $36,111. After the full one-year probationary period, each officer will earn 16 college credits and receive an approximate 20 percent pay increase over the starting salary, to $41,348. In addition to the base salary, appointees will receive a comprehensive health insurance program, retirement benefits, and pre-shift briefing which amounts to $1,727 annually.
Officers working at correctional facilities in the New York City area and select Mid-Hudson areas will receive an addition to their salary. There are also evening and night shift inconvenience pay programs.
The American Federation of Teachers reports that the base salary for high school teacher professionals during the 2003-2004 school year averaged $31,704.
By working toward a master’s degree, the base salary for high school teacher professionals can be increased. Earning the master’s degree can further increase the salary, while earning college credit beyond the master’s degree will increase the salary even further.
The base salary for high school teacher professionals can also increase when the teacher takes on extra responsibilities. For example, sponsoring clubs or working as a coach for various sports can help boost the teacher’s salary. In fact, the American Federation of Teachers reports that the average salary for high school teachers during the 2003-2004 school year was an attractive $46,597 [note: that's AVERAGE, not base].
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, Jim, so don't get your panties in a bunch...but, you don't have to have anything above a high school diploma or GED to become a CO. In contrast, you have to have at least a BA to be a teacher, and then if you do not get your MA within five years, you can no longer teach. Teachers must invest a minimum of 5 years and tens of thousands of dollars toward an education for a job that starts out less than that of a CO.
Let me make this clear--I am not knocking COs. At all. It just happens to be what someone else brought up, so I am furthering the discussion.
Woops sorry. When Rwiley mentioned teachers and guards......I assumed he was referring to teachers within the prision system. Shows ya where my mind set is........apologies
ReplyDeletelol =)
ReplyDeleteWell as luck would have it today is Commando Friday.....so there will be no bunching of any undergarments. I will deny deny and deny some more......I agree with you on the HSD/GED requirement for the CO's......personally I feel a 2 year Degree in CJ should be the minimum qual. to get in...............Back to you STA
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on that.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with smalltownamerica who said that the education system has nothing to do with the prisons. In the Suffolk co.(ny) jails most of the young(teen) inmates are from the same few school districts. My son was incarcerated at the age of 18 and I do place some of the blame on the ineffectiveness of the school district in dealing with troubled youth. They don't; they write them off and push them out of H.S. even if they should be held back. I was an involved parent, he came from a two parent household, we are caucasian so there are none of the obvious indications of a life doomed to the revolving door of the prison system. I understand that people make poor choices but aren't the schools supposed to work with parents to help educate young people? My child was educated in drug use, etc. at the age of 12. I saw the problems, I begged the school for help. There was none. I do hold the school system partially responsible for my son's dilemma. It breaks my heart to go to visit and see the overwhelming number of young people warehoused in the prison. I don't know what the solution is but I do know that mass warehousing of our troubled youth in prison is not the answer. I agree with the person who said that CO's should have at least a 2 yr. degree in CJ because some of those guards seem like they belong behind bars themselves. Sorry for the rant. I'm just a concerned mom who will not abandon her son to the system and who is looking for a way to help other young people. I wish I had become a teacher. i would work withn troubled youth.
ReplyDelete